Talk:Main Page
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Notes about the UGWiki
How do you like the new design of the main page? -Ingbert
Known Issues
- The search function is kinda crappy.
Spam?
Hey - look at the history of the main page - someone added a bunch of 'wiki sponsored medical ads' @ 01:24, 7 Jan 2005. Sad.
- Kirk
That is sad. Thanks for fixing it.
- Ingbert
The main page is now protected so that spammers can't mess with it.
- Ingbert
General Comments
I agree. Thanks! -Ingbert
Great job, Cameron! Btw, it's a little bit slow to visit from my home machine right now. How's yours? -Hong
Speed issues
I've heard from several people that the wiki is a little slow. I don't know precisely why it is so slow. Part of the problem may be that I am sharing bandwidth from my other sites, another issue might have to do with the url rewriting that allows for the all too pretty /wiki/page_name type urls.
- Cameron
It seems like most speed issues have been fixed, but let me or someone know if you are still having problems.
- Ingbert
The wiki seems to be having database problems. Lately I get "error connecting to the database server" pretty regularly. If I hit reload it's fine. Any ideas? Cameron, is the database really running on another system? Is this a colocated machine or a hosting service? Maybe whoever's doing the database hosting is running on an overloaded machine...
- Dan
Regarding Wiki Ettiquette
I personally think it is interesting to see what other people say about you, so I have few intentions of posting any changes to my page. On the other hand, this is a Wiki, and the whole point of a wiki is to have a dynamic experience without any rules, and see what happens, and how useful it is. Or, at least that's my understanding. If someone feels compelled to rant about themselves, it will probably be obvious from the content of their pages, and if people cannot handle criticism openly, I am guessing that pages will be created where they are referred to with cryptic nicknames. And probably the only way that some people who are less vocal than myself can get widely known in the department is by posting something about themselves, and I think that's a healthy thing, and ought not be discouraged.
-Ingbert
Discussion on Cameron's Comment
So I think that it is important to use this space constructively, but at the same time, I think it is important to encourage freedom of expression. The whole point of this Wiki is to (1) provide a location where people can exchange knowledge about the department that is not controlled by the department so that people feel free to communicate openly, and (2) that we provide a voice for students who have criticisms of classes, but are too timid to voice them openly. For that reason, I think it is important to emphasize the idea that this is not a GSLIS or UIUC controlled site, and that we should keep comments like:
Remember, it is a Wiki for the people of the department, by the people of the department, so your contributions will keep it going strong! And it is unofficial so there will be no Departmental Censorship or Control!
So that our fellow students feel comfortable posting. And to do this properly, we must keep instructions such as:
If you want to post anonymous criticisms, then make sure that you are either logged out, or have signed up with a dummy ID that cannot be traced to you, and post in that manner.
On the front page, because otherwise it becomes a oligarchical system, where those with technical skills have control and can do what they want, and know how to post anonymously, while those who do not, are silenced.
- Note: It was just pointed out to me that nobody on the internet is truly anonymous, and that it is only with careful use of dummy user accounts and IP addresses from whence you make changes that you will make it impossible for someone to track you. I made a few comments anonymously, for example, and if you are thorough, you can figure out what my IP address is, and that it belongs to me.
The thing is that people ought to be free to use the wiki however they feel is appropriate, but at the same time, they should realize that this is not intended to be a forum for venting anger, and it will not be productive for our fellow students to turn it into such a forum. This wiki is intended to be a knowledge management system, and the only way a knowledge management system is useful, is if the signal is not drowned out by the noise. That is why I would argue that people ought to feel it is appropriate to post constructively--it is simple respect for your fellow human beings not to censor them with noise. But, obviously, some people don't agree. I would hate to see the 501 page turn into something similar to George Bush's page on the Wikipedia, where editing privilidges are tightly controlled, simply because constructive comments are drowned out by the bitchfest. If you really hate the class, explain why, explain what you would do better, and describe in detail the problems and why they are problems so that we can all recognize them as such. That is what I do in my long, sometimes rude email rants, and I expect no less from anybody else.
-Ingbert
Discussion on Cameron's Comment 2
More later as I am in a hurry, but a lot of people are probably anon. commenting because they don't have an account.
also, i think it is useful for people to know if 90% of people think a class is bad. that is the truth, and not a personal rant. just because some things might be negative does not mean they are emotionally based.
~jenny
I don't have any problem with negative comments. But the point of making negative comments is to inspire improvement, not to be caustic and insulting simply to blow off steam. Explain why things are bad, and how they can be fixed. Many of my comments are emotional, but I know why I feel the way I do, and can explain it. Come on, we're all adults now, we can stop acting like middle school boys.
One example would be the time of day. My understanding is that 501 was scheduled at 8 am in order to accomodate Fridays Only students. No professor or student wants to be up that early, but we have a very diverse group of people attending GSLIS with very diverse needs. One of the points of Librarianship is for outreach to people, and attempting to accomodate them, no matter what their circumstances. The Fridays Only program is just such an outreach program, and for people to mouth off about the time without first asking someone who might actually know *why* it was scheduled so early in the morning is irresponsible. My understanding was that librarians were supposed to be experts in researching answers to questions. Why didn't the anonymous commentator use his or her skill? See, I can be caustic too.
- Ingbert
Ingbert and I were posting at the same time, and beat me to it! I agree with everything he said and just include my comments for completeness sake, even though they don't really add anything substantial.
I think you raise a valid point, however, simply stating that the class is bad is not constructive or helpful for other people. The comments about 501 were beyond just negative comments, they were unfounded and very emotional comments. The anonymous poster was afraid to even sign= his or her name to them, I wonder why? We shouldn't be afraid to post comments here if they are presented in a productive, constructive manner. I feel such arguments are justified in going on the Wiki and would be welcomed by the faculty and other students. Mature, rational conversations can be had, instead of drunken bitchfests best saved for the bar. How is it helpful to know that 501 is a bad class? What would be helpful are your thoughts on what could make it better or specifically the things which were problematic for you.
I also question estimates of 90%. Are there just a very loud, vocal minority, or have you surveyed all the students in 501 recently?
- Cameron
To apply my constructive side:
501 is almost universally hated in the on-campus form.
This is not entirely true. I have talked to a number of Masters students, and a majority don't like the class. But it is only the most vocal members who have expressed hate for it. And several of the Masters students I have talked to respect the information within the class, but think that the presentation is poor by both lecturers (too much reading off of slides, poor answering of questions, etc.), think that the readings are poorly selected, and wonder what the relevance of the class is to their practical degree. Having a debate about these issues is healthy, but they were not even brought up.
While the LEEP version has grumblers as well, it seems to be accepted as more practical than its on-campus counterpart.
Perhaps. I have talked to people who have actually compared the 501 on-campus lectures to the DocD's lecture in LEEP (librarian research in action), and found those lectures to be much more useful. As a result, when I take 501, I plan on taking the LEEP version. Of course, mentioning that it is an option for on-campus students to take the LEEP version would have been a useful comment to make as well.
It is a two-hour lecture scheduled at 8am on Friday morning, which to anyone with experience in human motivation might immediately see, is an immediate sign that professors do not want you to come to class.
See above posting.
The class is marked by its lack of organization and opaque, surrealist grading processes.
This seems to be true from the students I have talked to. The method of grading is complex, was not explained well multiple times, there was inconsistentcy between TAs, and comments made by TAs were sometimes difficult to understand or have clarified. But my description of the problems, while no less harsh, at least gives information which can be used to fix the process. And what do you suggest we do to fix the situation? What would be an alternative procedure?
The course has gone through numerous iterations and appears to only get worse.
This is not true. If you talk to various TAs who have TAed the course several times, they can point to specific improvements that have been made over time, and can attest to how much time Les and Carole spend trying to fix the class each year. Apparently with less success than they might have hoped for.
How this is possible is unknown at this time. Numerous student uprisings have forced the GSLIS faculty to delete required classes, but sadly, 380 still hangs on. This past semester has seen some anonymous student protest by the "501 Collective."
Blah Blah Blah. Holding up a sign in class makes you cool, apparently.
-Ingbert
Re: 501 (The unwanted houseguest of topics)
Actually, right now there IS surveying going on re: the on-campus vs. LEEP 501 and it does seem that on campus is far more disliked. As the LEEPers have posed it to me (re: Curriculum Committee stuff), the LEEP version is grumbled about but generally seen as useful, whereas the on-campus version is seen as just "a waste of time" (direct quotations). Fridays Only students also seem to hate the 8am time slot since it means they have to wake up at 3 or 4 in the morning, so this "It's for the FO students" strikes people as sketchy (again popular, not personal opinion). There has been a lot of student-faculty discussion about this in addition to this weird anonymous "collective." I didn't get a letter from the collective (I guess they put them in mailboxes) so, I dunno what it said, but the fact that students have gone that far says that there is a somewhat organized anti-501 "movement." I have discussed this topic to death because I am this go-between. If you would like to discuss it with me in person, I will consent to more 501 talk!! But honestly, I have spoken to only 2 people who "didn't mind" this year's incarnation of the class. I have still not spoken to one person who has understood the grading either.
Re: 8:00am classes. The time of LEEP classes is a big concern for us, because many LEEPers are working full time and going to school part time. An 8:00am LEEP class would be not be popular with us because we would be unable to take it. I can see similar issues with FO students having to leave home at 3:00am to get to class on time. However, I get the feeling from that comment that "its a sign that professors don't want you to come to class" that its too early for class.
I just took LIS501LE, and as far as liking the class, it was ok. Its too much information in too short a time. I agree with Ingbert's comments on debating the issues; I'd be happy to participate. If Jenny needs feedback from a LEEPer she can email me and we can chat.
Nothing really gets censored in Wikis, because you can always look at the history.
- Kirk
OK, here's my $0.02 (after inflation). I took LIS501LE and had mixed feelings. On one hand, DocD is a great guy and he did a good job with his slides and lectures. On the other, some things did frustrate me. For example, we had to do a group project on relational databases. For me, it was mostly tedious, since I'd already worked with RDBs, and I felt disappointed about not being able to spend the time doing something more interesting, like learning more about database security. A couple of my teammates didn't seem to understand the concepts too well, and it was easier to just do it than it would have been to make them fix their work. In the end, I was irritated and also wondered whether the aforementioned teammates had actually learned anything about databases.
The research review was a better experience because I got to learn more about information retrieval, which turned out to be pretty interesting. It was still a little confusing, though. The sample reviews were all on less technical topics, and the instructions told us that this wasn't a thesis, so we weren't supposed to do any background reading. This seemed to be truly well-intentioned, but the problem is that the norms and standards might vary across different fields. For example, some of the sample reviews criticized the papers for not providing definitions for some terms used in that discipline. If I'd done the same thing - for example, complaining that one of the papers didn't define the term "directed acyclic graph", I would have looked like an idiot. With systems papers, you sometimes have to find definitions or look at background material just to understand them.
On the positive side, some of the material was pretty interesting. DocD's research was cool, and I also liked the bibliometrics stuff. Kirk and I had fun doing some statistical analysis on the chat logs. The people were really nice, and I wished that there was more opportunity to interact with my classmates in real life.
wayward
Non-501 (oh, thank the gods)
Outside of the 501 issue, I guess my point is that the unique thing that I see the wiki being capable of is discussions pro- and con- classes. When I sign up for classes right now, the only way I can see if they are good or bad is to informally poll people that I already know. For someone just starting GSLIS, there isn't even that. Many of the Masters students are here for only a year, and taking a bad class is a gigantic waste of time and opportunity. Having a place where people could (good and bad) anonymously post about classes would be really great for many of us. I know a lot of people who did not put negative comments on their ICES forms because they are paranoid about saying bad things about profs. If they can't put that kind of info there, at least here might be a good place for students to discuss it, don't you think?
I think this exchange is interesting, because from the doctoral POV you guys hear about classes from TAs, and as a masters person, we seem to have a different POV. Ingbert's quotation: " If you talk to various TAs who have TAed the course several times, they can point to specific improvements"
is interesting to me, because it again is not from a student POV at all. Yes, I am sure changes have been made, but "improvements" are in the eye of the beholder, aren't they? This program really separates the two groups, and I think this wildly divergent POV is the result. If only we could find some way to get together...hmmm....
People putting as much information out there as possible is the best plan (marketplace of information and all...), and having readers decide what to trust is the best option, I think. As LIS people, the readers will be able to judge information pretty well (esp. from anonymous contributors) on their own.
A question: Ingbert said: "Blah Blah Blah. Holding up a sign in class makes you cool, apparently." --What does this refer to? Did I miss something? (likely)
All in all I think the wiki could be really helpful, but if it's going to be a political landmine or censored then it doesn't seem very useful! :) ~Jenny "I may not agree with what you say but I will fight for your right to say it." Benevento
Another section to help people find the end of the discussion==
Excellent! Now this is the kind of discussion a wiki is for! IMHO. :) I can't believe I ever publicly used the acronym, IMHO... -Ingbert
Jenny, I appreciate the fact that you are bringing in facts to this discussion. It was sorely needed--my impressions were hardly from a representative sample (5-7 MS Students in On-Campus 501).
And thanks Kirk for presenting the LEEP perspective. I would urge you to post those comments on the 501 page, and identify your professor, if you feel comfortable doing so. (otherwise there's that anonymous option, :) )
Regarding the FO students. The point is that the early time was intended for them. Not that the idea was necessarily a good idea. I'm glad that you are serving in your capacity as a Masters Rep to the Curriculum Committee, so that they get the proper feedback and know that scheduling it early on Friday morning is not a good idea, because FO students don't like it, and therefore it alienates everyone.
Jenny's point about the wiki is something I heartily agree with, and is one of the reasons that Cameron set it up outside of the department. The point, is not that we want to censor it. The point is that we want students to post meaningful comments, so that important information is not lost in a host of pointless, silly comments, that are nothing but hurtful to professors.
The proplem with too much information is sorting through it. This is not a trival task, or SPAM would be no big deal, and Google would not be a household name. We want to prevent clutter in the wiki by asking people to post meaningfully. I don't think people should hold back. But the point is to have comments which can be discussed.
I agree that the seperation of the Masters students from the PhD is a problem. I hope that both PhD students and Masters will start using the wiki, and maybe that can be a start for some interactivity. However, I have talked to both Masters Students (5-7), and to TAs (3-4), and that is the best way to fix POV issues. I have not yet talked to Les or Carole, but I am not in the class either. I want to give the TAs a chance to respond before I speak for them, but one issue that has come up is that Masters students are obsessed about their grades, and they are here to pursue a graduate degree, not a second undergrad degree, which means introduction to material that is more theoretical in nature. If they wanted a purely practical degree, there are other schools to attend.
-Ingbert
I hear that grades point, but I think people have to imagine that this is your first semester of grad school at the #1 rated school in your discipline, and you have little background in that discipline, and you have a job that is paying for your tuition that requires you to get a certain gpa, that when you get grades that average to a 70%, you'll probably be worried. By this time many of us realize that grad school is a dream world of As and Bs, but my first semester I had no idea where the bar was to get a B, and if I were in this iteration of 501, I would think I was failing.
That said I think TAs are probably caught in the crossfire. :) ~J
